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Re: Re: Re: Fox Warehouse Fire of 1937

Yes, Charlie Chan in Paris was found in Prague, I believe.

I would be very curious to know if any Fox Film distribution documentation is still around and, if so, whether it can be studied for clues as to where prints of the missing films might have been sent.

It seems to me that if one or more of these missing films ever resurface, it is almost certainly going to be in an overseas location.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Fox Warehouse Fire of 1937

Hi Douglas,

Thank you for a couple of very interesting posts. I must admit that I'm surprised by the lackluster response to them, especially from Rush Glick with his vast knowledge and resources, he certainly could have given you a better reply than he did. You bring up some very interesting ideas that should be explored further.

It seems that your post has been virtually ignored by everyone else, considering that some of your ideas if properly researched could lead to some very interesting and promising results. If the 4 lost Oland Chans ever do surface I hope that you, Douglas will be given the first opportunity to view them.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Fox Warehouse Fire of 1937

Distribution records?

Or were they lost in the fire as well?T

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Fox Warehouse Fire of 1937

THANK YOU... SO MUCH!

As for whether written distibution records were destroyed in the same warehouse fire, I suppose that is possible, but it could also be possible that such records would not even have been kept in the same place as the films themselves. I would expect that distribution records would have been in a filing cabinet in an office somewhere.

I suppose that 20th Century Fox would be the company to ask to see if some sort of records have been retained dating back to the Fox Film days. There could be different sorts of records perhaps. For example, there could be orders to have postive prints made from the original negatives, shipping records, balance sheets of profits from overseas showings of the films, and so forth. If anything was kept it seems that there might be some clues as to where prints might today exist.

Re: Fox Warehouse Fire of 1937

Hi Douglas,

From what I understand Fox has already looked extensively worldwide for these 4 films to no avail. I'm reasonably certain they've used whatever records they have as clues. Private collectors have also tried to find the 4 Chans and come up empty.

I know that some people think they existed until the early 60s but there's too much circumstantial evidence that leads me to believe the 1937 did them in (along with many of Fox's silent and early sound films).

Steve

Re: Re: Fox Warehouse Fire of 1937

Steve:

Thanks for your reply. Playing devil's advocate...

Suppose that "Charlie Chan in Paris" had not turned up in (I believe) Prague. Suppose it were still sitting on the same shelf today where it was found. Do you think that you would similarly conclude from the same circumstantial evidence that this movie was also done in by the 1937 fire?

It seems to me that if any of these films still exist somewhere, they would probably not be in any immediately accessible place or they would have turned up by now.

In addition, if Fox has merely written to film archives worldwide and asked, it may not have been the case that they have received replies from these film archives. Furthermore, if they received replies, these replies may have been simply on the order of "we have no records of these films being here." That is not to say that such a film might be there somewhere, but on some long forgotten shelf.

The trailer for "Charlie Chan Carries On" was found in Australia, I believe. There was no reason to think that this film would surface, but there it is. I have been hoping that this would be included on one of the box sets coming out, but I've seen nothing about that. However, it does exist and was given a public screening in Washington D.C. (though I missed that unfortunately).

My point is that the available evidence and documentation should be examined. (This is what our immortal hero would have done, by the way.) It would be very helpful to know how many positive prints were made from each negative, where these prints were sent in the world, how many were returned to Fox and from where, box office figures on the movies worldwide (to be able to place prints of the films at various locations at particular times), where in the world Fox has made inquiries, which places in the world responded and what these responses stated, which places did not respond, and so forth.

I have no access to such information, but I wish I did. With information of this sort and a bit of brainpower, it might be possible to figure out where these prints MIGHT exist. There were reasons why "Charlie Chan in Paris" was in Prague and why the trailer for "Charlie Chan Carries On" was in Australia. Those prints were sent there once, I am sure. The same could be true for other missing material. No offense to the officials at Fox, I don't think we can simply assume that everything has been checked in the most complete way possible.

Doug

Re: Re: Re: Fox Warehouse Fire of 1937

The most intriguing line of inquiry, in my opinion, is the following...

Rush posted here last October about two Charlie Chan films made in Shanghai that are believed to have been titled "Charlie Chan in the Homeland" and "Charlie Chan at the Radio Station." These were reportedly made by the Hsin Hwa Motion Picture Company of Shanghai and starred Hsu Hsin-Yuan as Charlie Chan.

The Hsin Hwa Motion Picture Company would certainly have studied the Oland Chan films to make their two Chan films and this implies that they would have had copies of these films. China is today fairly well known as a place that seems to have no scruples about making pirated copies of American DVDs and reselling them at bargain prices.

It is a shot in the dark, I admit, but I would not be surprised if sitting next to the prints of "Charlie Chan in the Homeland" and "Charlie Chan at the Radio Station" in some old Shanghai film storage facility (that miraculously survived the war, of course) we might also find the four missing Oland films. In other words, Shanghai might be a good place to check for six missing Chan films.

Doug

Re: Re: Re: Re: Fox Warehouse Fire of 1937

I'm a bit confused. The Hsin Hwa Motion Picture Company is described at one website as being created later than the 1930s. Perhaps in the late 1940s or early/mid 1950s. However, the speculation was that the Chinese Chan films were perhaps from the 1930s. Of course, the dates on the films were only a guess, but maybe the films were made later. Or perhaps the films were distributed later by this motion picture company.

I glanced at this website...

http://www.lcsd.gov.hk/CE/CulturalService/HKFA/english/publication/pub19_foreword.html

...and it says the following...

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Mandarin Films
1) To speak of Mandarin cinema in the early and mid-1950s, one cannot fail to mention the names of Zhang Shankun and Yuen Yang-an/Yuan Yang'an. Zhang assisted Li Zuyong to set up Yung Hwa in 1947. Two years later, after a falling out with Li, Zhang co-founded with Yuen Great Wall Pictures Corporation. The momentum for developing a Mandarin film industry was established but Zhang and Yuen departed company when the finances and administration of Great Wall became influenced by events happening in China. Yuen stayed in the restructured Great Wall Movie Enterprises Ltd, which became identified with left-wing tendencies. The company employed directors such as Yue Feng, Li Pingqian, Cheng Bugao, and cultivated acting talents such as Hsia Moon/Xia Meng, Shek Hwei/Shi Hui, and Fu Che/Fu Qi. Zhang went on to create his own production company, Hsin Hwa Motion Picture Company, fostering exchanges with Japan and learning the art of colour photography. In 1956, Hsin Hwa's Songs of the Peach Blossom River/Taohua Jiang reinvigorated the trend of Mandarin musicals and introduced a new star, Chung Ching/Zhong Qing, nicknamed 'Little Wild Cat'.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

This would indicate that the Hsin Hwa Motion Picture Company was set up either in the late 1940s or early/mid 1950s.

Yet here...

http://charliechanfamily.tripod.com/id179.html

it states...

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Charlie Chan in the Homeland (Mid-1930s?)

Hsin Hwa Motion Picture Company (Shanghai, China)
Released: Hsin Hwa Motion Picture Company (Late 1930s)
Sound
Film: Black and white
Length: Unknown
Running Time: Unknown

KNOWN CAST:

Hsu Hsin-Yuan: Charlie Chan

The worldwide popularity of Charlie Chan by the mid-1930s, including in his "homeland" of China, led to the filming of this "unauthorized" Chinese production. Judging from the title, this movie featured Charlie Chan solving a mystery in the land of his honorable ancestors, perhaps in the city of Shanghai.

Charlie Chan in the Radio Station (Mid-1930s?)

Hsin Hwa Motion Picture Company (Shanghai, China)
Released: Hsin Hwa Motion Picture Company (Late 1930s)
Sound
Film: Black and white
Length: Unknown
Running Time: Unknown

KNOWN CAST:

Hsu Hsin-Yuan: Charlie Chan

Charlie Chan in the Homeland perhaps met with enough success to prompt another "unauthorized" Chinese production. In this film, Charlie Chan, probably still in his homeland, evidently solved a mystery that took place at a radio station.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Fox Warehouse Fire of 1937

Well, I take it back...

Here's a Time Magazine article from 1939 that mentions the Hsin Hwa Motion Picture Company...

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,760715,00.html?iid=chix-sphere

So there were apparently films being made by a company under this name in 1938 and 1939. Perhaps the company set up in the 1950s is a different company with the same name?

In any case, if the Chinese films were made in the mid 1930s, it could very well have been the early missing Oland films that would have served as the models for them.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Fox Warehouse Fire of 1937

I looked up the movie in the Time Article on Internet Movie Database. Here is the link...

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0929419/

Thus, according to IMDB the Hsin Hwa Motion Picture Company was making films in the late 1930s.

They also made "The Adventures of Chinese Tarzan" in 1940. This shows that the company was doing copies of Hollywood films during this period.

See this link...

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0270187/

The Hsin Hwa Motion Picture Company released a picture in 1981. It was a Hong Kong/Taiwan production. I wonder if the older films from this production company were mostly...

1. Destroyed in the war
2. Taken somewhere (or perhaps destroyed?) by the communist government
3. Taken to Hong Kong or Taiwan
4. None of the above

"The Adventures of Chinese Tarzan" (1940) received 15 votes on IMDB, so someone has seen this one recently.

I wonder about the two Chinese Chan films and any prints from Hollywood that may have served to inspire their creation. I realize this is grasping at straws, but since looking for the Chinese films would be interesting too, it would be worthwhile also to ask about any other Chan prints possibly held by this production company.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Fox Warehouse Fire of 1937

Special thanks to Douglas and Steve for their responses.

During the 1960s and 1970s a massive, and I mean MASSIVE undertaking took place to find films that had earned the undesireable status as 'lost or missing.' Studios such as Fox, MGM, Paramount, etc. were now more than willing to shell out big bucks to locate films missing from their vaults. They finally got the message that these films had historical value.

While companies such as Fox and others were busy trying to locate highly sought after films(including the lost Chans), various film historians and researchers were conducting their own intensive searches. The most notable of these was writer/researcher Jon Tuska who believed the most obvious place to look for the lost Chans outside of the United States would be in China. This was in the 1970s and optimism was still high, while looking for the four missing Oland Chans, Jon came across two Chinese-produced Chans, it is unclear whether these were the actual films or records of their having been made. Jon may infact be the only person in the western part of the world to have actually viewed these films. It's disappointing to report that not a trace of the lost Oland Chans could be found at that time.

Also, in the 1970s Jon Tuska interviewed Spencer G. Bennet who directed the very first Chan film, 'House Without a Key.' Jon may be the person to ask if there have been any recent developments regarding these still missing Chan films.

On a more positive note it would be interesting if any of our Spanish-speaking friends could do some research for us concerning a 1955 Mexican Chan film called: El Monstruo En La Sombra (The Monster in the Shadow). This film definitely does exist and has been shown on television throughout the Spanish-speaking world, numerous times over the years.